Flying With the Fishes

sea-tidesofthesoul:

eraofstories:

dedicatedfollower467:

eraofstories:

sea-tidesofthesoul:

hanabi:

ssfrostiron:

 Agent Coulson is down

#gif warning #avengers #okay but why does nOBODY EVER TALK ABOUT THE GENERATION GAP #come on guys this is the MOST INTERESTING THING #look if steve had lived through the war he would have been part of that post-wwii generation #imagine steve in the 60S GUYS #you think he would have put up with those young folks disrespecting those soldiers and his country by protesting the war? HECK NO #remember that scene at the beginning of ca:tfa where he tells off that guy in the movie theater? THAT WOULD BE STEVE IN THE 60S #and tony is in his 40s!! tony is gen x! tony is NOT EVEN A BOOMER #tony is TOO YOUNG TO BE A BABY BOOMER tony is YOUNGER THAN OUR PARENTS #tony doesn’t know what it’s like to live in a country that’s in total war! tony doesn’t know what it’s like for loyalty to your country t… #to be something that almost everyone has! #look guys we make fun of america ALL THE TIME we mock patriotism and nationalism and the usa CON STANT LY #when steve hears the word soldier he equates it with the word hero #and when tony hears the word soldier he hears an insult. #because steve’s war is wwii #and tony’s wars are vietnam and iraq and afghanistan and tony knows that when america fights wars it is not necessarily the good guy! #and steve cannot even BEGIN to comprehend that #steve barely knows what WATERGATE is for god’s sake steve probably still trusts the government #steve doesn’t know about jfk conspiracy theories! steve doesn’t know about the patriot act #(and let me remind you that in 616 canon steve actually fought a war to bring down the expy!patriot act) #god america has grown up SO MUCH since steve’s day #americans are sarcastic and cynical and plugged into the media 24/7 #americans depricate themselves constantly americans hate america more than anybody else does #pearl harbor turned america into a unified force for change in the world; 9/11 turned america into something paranoid and bitter #steve no longer represents america #he represents what america wishes it had ever been #and tony? tony understands the usa a whole lot better than steve does and he knows it and steve never will #and tony understands how war can destroy and steve only understands how it can save #holy christ why would you write porn when you could write about that

Oh my god I

I hate this reading of World War II so

much

I hate this reading of Steve Rogers so much

Okay I just

Steve Rogers’ story, as much now as it was in 1941, is very much the myth of the United States’ foreign policy identity leading up to, and especially following, the attack on Pearl Harbor. Steve Rogers doesn’t want to kill anyone. Steve Rogers just doesn’t like bullies. Steve Rogers, big strong handsome blond man with a shield, wants to protect the little guy because he knows what it is to be the little guy. Because a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion. It is, therefore, critical to our understanding of Steve Rogers, for the purposes of the cinematic universe, that he should be encased in ice somewhere around 1943 or early 1944, before the U.S. started launching its aerial attacks on the Japanese civilian population. Back when the American strategy in the Pacific was still largely one of island hopping—of pushing the bad guy out of its ill-begotten territories. Along those lines, it is equally important that Steve Rogers’ war is almost exclusively the war in Europe—leaving aside the history of the racialized violence that characterized the war in the Pacific, the European war is one of physically liberating civilians, of pushing the invaders out of people’s homes. Because the U.S., like its captain, does not like bullies.

Steve Rogers was not complicit in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because on multiple levels, he was not there.

But he would have hated it.

Steve Rogers didn’t go all in for war because his country asked it of him. In fact, until he was chosen to be Captain America, Steve Rogers actively chose to break laws in his attempts to enlist when the army told him that he couldn’t. Steve Rogers went all in for war because it was ideologically sold to him in terms that made sense and that mattered. Because the U.S. was still able to make the argument that it was the country that he wanted it to be. And to say that Steve doesn’t know about Watergate and about Vietnam when all through the Avengers he keeps talking about his lost bearings—(“they didn’t say what we lost”/”I hope I’m the right guy for the job). No, he knows. Whether SHIELD told him up front or he had to ask about it or he went out and sat in the back of a city college classroom to listen to someone about Tony’s age tell him about the sacrifices of his generation that were nothing, from this distance, but the groundwork of the United States becoming the country he never wanted it to be—with the help, of course, of weapons manufacturers like Stark Industries (the weapon you only have to fire once—that’s how America does it.)

of course he knows.

Steve Rogers would have hated the war in Korea. Would have hated the war in Vietnam would have hated the war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would have wondered why the U.S. didn’t do more earlier to interfere in Bosnia, would have screamed until he couldn’t breathe over its lack of action in Rwanda. 

And Steve Rogers isn’t a fool. Steve Rogers knows how public opinion is generated by a man in leggings made out of rationed wool saying empty words in order to sell an identity to a nation in order to convince it to fund a war against unseen others overseas. Saying that America has “grown up” since “Steve’s war” is to ignore the fact that his participation in this machine was always constrained by his own set of ideological terms and conditions—and to ignore the direct lineage that led us from one war into another. And then another. And then another.

Because at the end of the day, America hasn’t grown up. And that’s the point. The point is that Steve Rogers continues to be the dominant myth of our foreign policy identity. Steve Rogers isn’t what we wish we ever were, Steve Rogers is what we think we still are. What we thought we were going into Vietnam in 1954—and what we were convinced we still should have been slinking out of it in 1975. And the basic point, here, for better or worse, is that Steve Rogers isn’t happy with the things that led us from point a to point b. It’s not about the defeat, to him. It’s about the abuse of power, the abuse of strength.

The material point is that Steve Rogers is disappointed.

Steve Rogers is disappointed in part because even the war he was fighting wasn’t the war that he thought it was. And to deny him the reasoning capacity to understand that is basically to reduce him to the same dancing monkey in tights that he was at the start. Steve Rogers gets it, guys. The point is not that he accepts the American mythology uncritically or all the way. The point is that he has been made into the American mythology and that, knowing how it has failed, he now wants to make it right. Because the purpose-driven Captain Rogers has to do something. And where America will not, he still wants to make it right.

I don’t have the brain cells to really think about this right now (looooong busy day at work), but I think I like it.

I mean on the one hand I think there is really important commentary here, and on the other hand it ignores the reality of the war in Europe and of what it was about in large part - I know that a lot of people see it it as just 

Along those lines, it is equally important that Steve Rogers’ war is almost exclusively the war in Europe—leaving aside the history of the racialized violence that characterized the war in the Pacific, the European war is one of physically liberating civilians, of pushing the invaders out of people’s homes

But that isn’t actually entirely accurate. It’s very nice to say that the war in the pacific was racialized and the war in europe was not, but I dare you to tell that to the Jews, to the Romani (although I am not Roma and cannot speak for them, it doesn’t feel right to leave them out). I dare you to tell me that there was no moral ambiguity in the repeated decisions to let the Jews of Europe fend for themselves when they United States, at the very least the government did have knowledge of what was happening, that there was nothing questionable about the idea that rescuing european *Christian* *white* art was a military concern (see the monument men) while the lives of my people were worthless. I fucking dare you to tell me that even on the front where he fought Steve Rogers always agreed with everything he saw. If he did? then he isn’t the character the above describes him as being. So let’s not pretend that Steve wasn’t already seeing this shit - he was. Maybe there are things that he did not see this country do, such as actively attacking people for being impure, as suggested above with the idea that we weren’t yet doing these sort of things to the Japanese (because I’m 100% sure that Jim Morita and Gabe Jones never talked to him! that is for sure true!! Yes!) but even if that is true, he absolutely saw the United States refuse to act. He grew up in Brooklyn, almost certainly with Jewish neighbors, do you really think he would have known nothing at all about the terrified letters they were getting from family in the old country? Do you really think that once he got to Europe and saw the reality with his own eyes even if he didn’t know before hand that he didn’t try to get the military to start working harder on rescuing the innocents?  Because honestly? I don’t think that thing. 

The lines above are making the same pretense as so many people make, that Steve is pure and all American, it just pretends that his idealism was shattered sooner. Even saying that Steve’s discovery that the war he was fighting wasn’t what he thought it was in TFA doesn’t change the fact that this statement is wrong to its very core. The war was bloody and dark and horrific long before the US entered it. It was horrific not just in the sense of general people having heir homes occupied, and to suggest otherwise is absurd. He would have been horrified by the lack of response to Rwanda, but he, at least, would not have been surprised. Stop kidding yourselves. 

TBH I think I like the cynical Steve eraofstories describes better than either interpretation up there.

Steve’s not stupid. He knew what was going on, he knew that the war he was fighting in and fighting for was brutal and bloody and terrible, and he hated it. He’s frustrated and angry at the way his country has handled things, and he knows that America is just about as much of a bully as anyone else.

C’mon guys. He was a disabled guy in the thirties, when eugenics was at its absolute height in the United States. People - doctors even - probably told both him and his mom that he ought to have died as a child, that he should be permanently sterilized in order to prevent passing his blighted genes onto the next generation. He was alive and aware when government-supported institutions were forcibly sterilizing women and people of color in order to control them.

He knows America is not the country it portrays itself as. He knows there were people - probably people he saw in person - who thought Hitler had the right idea. He’s not fighting to kill some Nazis and he’s not fighting because his country is the best country or because he’s patriotic.

Steve Rogers took up the shield for one reason and one reason alone: he doesn’t like bullies.

And if the only way he could fight the bullies that were committing genocide and invading the homes and countries of mostly-innocent people was to join his nation’s military, for all its flaws, he was going to do that.

Steve never believed in the pure purity of America, he never believed in a righteous war. But he believed that he had to do something, that as a human being he had an obligation to help out any way he could. Sometimes that meant supporting a nation and a military that could do horrible, despicable things to its own citizens. But in his mind, it was the only way.

Yes, Steve and Tony have different perspectives on what it means to be a soldier. Tony sees a soldier as someone who volunteers to go out and kill people. Steve sees a soldier as someone who tries their damnedest to help the only way they can.

(era, lemme know if this is completely out of line with what you were trying to say)

Exactly! because steve rogers never experienced the *purity of america!* not when he was tiny and as def says, being told that the world would literally be better without him in it, that ‘that Hitler guy had the right of it, and if only we were living in Germany I’d get you out of the reproducing population faster than you could cough!’ and not after the serum when he was in a position to make a difference and instead was sent around on tour dancing. He never saw this ‘pure america’ we’re all supposed to think he believes in - he just hopes for it, believes that maybe if enough people try hard enough the world can be different. And that’s why he’s okay with being called captain america even though he’s never seen a country that was just or righteous (and to be clear, I’m not convinced that the people making the movies actually understand this fact, but it still true that someone living Steve’s life when Steve lived it would have known that the american dream was not for people like him) but  because he does understand what the ideal America could be, and he’s willing to fight for that ideal, though not for the current reality. 

Reblogging this again for more good commentary!

(Source: rob-downeyjr)

gailsimone:

pdc:

dresdencodak:

gailsimone:

dbvictoria:

Gail Simone is on a tear on twitter this morning.

I said some stuff.

Read this.

This is great but I really think someone should buy Gail Simone a blog so she does not have to write essays in the form of 400 successive tweets!

I didn’t intend to “write an essay,” or I would have written an essay.

I was on Twitter and posted some related thoughts.

(via maggamaggamagga)

Wonder Woman is there to kick ass not give you a boner

—favorite response to some dude saying the Wonder Woman costume isn’t sexy enough on Facebook (via agentturner)

(via lipstick-feminists)

pansexualfacts:

Fact: It has been discovered that the bermuda triangle is simply one pan, one bi, and one ace person collecting aircrafts and ships for the upcoming revolution.

(via foxy-knitter)

blame-the-feels:

arya-stormborn:

maddieatsbrains:

holy frick

from now on, whenever anybody doubts marvel casting ill just show them this

My dad the comic book expert said they made Fury look like Samuel L Jackson with his permission in the comic book. So when they made the movie, guess who they had to go find? Samuel L Jackson.

(Source: syntaxbitch, via cardcarryingcynic)